За демократию в России! За демократию в России!

I m a frendch student in politics!!!
На страницу Пред.  1, 2
Начать новую тему   Ответить на тему    Список форумов noputin.ru -> Our friends all over the World
Предыдущая тема :: Следующая тема  
Автор Сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 24.06.2005
Сообщения: 5
Откуда: Питер

СообщениеДобавлено: Сб 25 Июн 2005, 14:27    Заголовок сообщения: Ответить с цитатой

Hi, Antoine!

I'm Russian from St. Petersburg. I don't take a part in "No Putin" organisation but just because of my current residence, for the last 3 years most of the time I've spent in Europe - I'm a PhD student in Germany. Anyway, I'd like to answer your question: "how can people in Western Europe help Russia and Russian people?".

I'd like to point out at once that it's not easy and straightforward.
First of all, because of many barriers - such as languages, visas, etc. Second, because of Russian attitude towards any kind of influence from abroad. I can ensure you - whatever a foreigner says about Russia, any Russian is gonna be suspicious about it, or even aggressive . You have to understand, it's a direct consequence of our history - thousand years of isolation, and thousand years of fighting on both eastern and western borders.

But you and your friends in Europe can actually help a lot, and for this you don't even have to leave Lyon. Moreover, you'll help not only Russia, but whole Europe.

Hows and whys:
The key factor and driving force of dictatorship development in modern Russia is a group of former KGB agents, the Putin's former colleagues, and the personality of Putin is a center of this group. It's actually the reason - I believe - why this site is called "noputin", but not "nodictator", "liberty" or "democracy". But back to KGB agents from Kremlin... They were educated in Soviet Union, and took a lot from its ideology, principles, and methods. But they are very different from their teachers in one sense, and that is, they don't want to be in the isolation behind the iron curtain. They prefer to have real money rather than privileges which communistic bosses had, and they want to spend them as they fancy - in Vegas and Monte-Carlo, but not in special shops for party members where they could buy almost everything but their choice would be limited.
To put it in a nutshell, they like to have life of the best quality for that money they get by robbing Russia.

But money is not everything, in addition they have political ambitions. They want to be as Stalin in Russia, i.e. to do whatever they want, but they don't want to be outcasts for European and North American leaders. They love being on the meeting in Davos and London. Putin personally adores being among the leaders of Great 7. By the way, in Russian official news on TV (we don't have other news on TV), it's been very long time since they started to call it Great 8. It's almost only reason why they use democratic rhetoric in their public speeches, and this speeches consequently fulls a lot of Russians because of another Russian "tradition", and that is, almost unlimited credit to tsar, secretary-general, or president, but I hope this "tradition" will be stopped soon.

Here I'm coming to the essence of the matter.
If European and American politicians stop talking friendly to Putin and his band, it would be of great help to us. Finally, they must do it as they always point out that they will always be against totalitarian regimes, and they will always support democratic movements all over the globe. When Chirac gives his hand to Putin, he betrays us, and he betrays democratic idea itself. The same is true for Shredder, Blair, Bush, and others.

I think it's your right and even obligation to demand from your government such foreign policy which will provide secure future for France and whole Europe. Can you imagine what will happen if totalitarian regime in Russia finally will be established?
By the way, Russian military budget for Putin's time was increased tremendously, at the same time according to recent survey, more then 60% of Russians don't have enough money even for food!

At the end, I'd like to draw a parallel with events from our common history, I think they illustrate the current situation in the world very well. In the middle 30th of the last century, Western European politicians were ready to deal even with Hitler, just to prevent a spread of communistic virus. So they had been keeping more or less good relationship with Nazi until the First World War actually started. It looks like before the beginning of the war, they couldn't notice what was going on in Germany.
Now the Western World is fighting against terrorism, and western politicians have chosen Putin as their alias... What's going to happen next???

If you want to continue the topic, let's do it here. As an alternative here's my e-mail address: yakov.sergeev [AT] tuebingen.mpg.de

Cheers, Yakov

Последний раз редактировалось: yahont (Вс 3 Июл 2005, 17:56), всего редактировалось 7 раз(а)
Вернуться к началу
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

Зарегистрирован: 18.04.2005
Сообщения: 14
Откуда: Norvegia

СообщениеДобавлено: Чт 30 Июн 2005, 19:02    Заголовок сообщения: Putin, Fascism and Class-struggle Ответить с цитатой

Dear Yakov,

Thanks a lot for your frank introduction to Russian realities, and your outspoken comparison of the Putin-regime with the German fascist-regime of the thirties. The very fact that such utterances may be published on a site like this, in it self shows that even though Putin is powerful he is in no way allmighty, and that there still is room for a certain degree of free speech. Your current position as a Phd-student in Germany probably makes it easier for you to be as outspoken. If you was a student of some Russian university, I guess you would have been in danger of being expelled, for being so outright in your criticism of the Russian central power of today, as students were expelled in eastern Ukraina in front of the Orange revolution, for open support of Yuschenko.

I would like to try to broaden your analysis a bit, from my position as an unemployed Norwegian scholar in Post-Soviet affairs in Oslo, Norway. Firstly, I totally agree with your comparison of Putin with German fascism of the thirties. Given such similarities, though, a wide range of questions are being raised. Historically, the legacy of German fascism is not yet in no way to be conceived as a finalized chapter in modern history. The fall of the German fascist power, wonderfully described in the film Der Untergang by Oliver Hirschbiegel recently, did immediately switch over to the Cold war of two politically antagonistic blocs. The power-struggle of the Cold war did not leave much space neither on the western nor the eastern side of the Iron curtain for a thorough understanding and closure of the fascist phenomenon. In the opposite, fascist elements continued to exist both in Soviet and American policy. The brutal Moscow-led deportations of Soviet peoples at the end of the Second world war, resembled the attitude of German fascism towards non-aryans. The crimean-tatars were not allowed to return to their homeland before in the late eighties, with the liberalization-process of Gorbachev, displaying the existence of a fascist element also in the Soviet Union throughout the Cold war. At the same time the American policy of anticommunist containment all over the world obviously legitimized fascist elements as a tool of socalled "western democratic" power.

In my view the grand narrative of Karl Marx is a necessary tool to analyze this modern historical development, and thereby to spot possible ways to overcome todays situation, and lay the foundation for a more peaceful, democratic and prosperous development for all. The main difference of Soviet and "western" societies, is that the first accepted, while the former neglected, the existence of class-struggle. Modern West-European and American philosophical thought may be interpreted as a desperate attempt to avoid the challenging concept of class-struggle. The Austrian noted philosopher Karl Popper made it his life-obligation to prevent the western public to pay faith in class-struggle. His mayor argument was, as outlined in The poverty of historicism from 1957, that the existence of class-struggle was not to be empirically verified, and therefore represented pure nonsense. But Popper was not alone in the world, and he was put under very heavy attack not only from rank-and file communists, but also from the highly independent and critical philosopher of language Ludwig Wittgenstein. Check out the book "Wittgenstein`s poker" by David Edmonds and John Eidinow from 2001, which tells the story of the scandalous and only meeting of the two great philosophers at Kings College in Cambridge in 1946, where Popper made a lecture on the philosophy of moral. This gave an opportunity for Wittgenstein to reveal the limit of Popper`s stricht empiricism, and waving with a poker he challenged Popper to give an example of an empically founded moral law. - Well, for instance that you should not threaten guest-lecturers with a poker, Popper replied unseriously, making Wittgenstein to throw the poker and leave the meeting in fury.

To challenge the Popperian western bulwark against the recognition of class-struggle was highly problematic in western academies during the Cold war. When the exile Hungarian communist philosopher Imre Lakatos, who found refuge under Popper at London School of Economics, made the initiative of a conference in July 1965 on the challenge of the language-oriented American philosopher Thomas Kuhns book The structure of Scientific Revolutions for Poppers empirizism, he suddently realized what he had embarked upon. In the anthology "Criticism and the Growth of Knowledge" following the failed conference the philosopher John Watkins explained: "A few weeks ago I was asked to reply to Professor Kuhn this afternoon. Feyerabend and Lakatos were to have given the other papers; but the first could not come and the second found that, in arranging this colloquium, he had brought into existence a many-headed monster attending to whose multiplying demands would keep him busy approximately twenty-four hours a day."

In my view it seems obvious that the manyheaded monster Imre Lakatos spotted was nothing but the very existent class-struggle in a western context.

The recognition of the existence of a fierce struggle in modern history between the oppressors and the oppressed, the phenomenon by the great revolutionaries Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin labelled class-struggle, is of great value to understand the ongoing processes in todays seemingly chaotic world, and shows the situation to be serious, but in no way hopeless. I have personally the last two years experienced a transition from the ranks of the oppressors to the ranks of the oppressed. The transition began when I in April 2003 sat down as a representative of the Norwegian Non-fiction Writers and Translators Association (NFF) with representatives of the Ukrainian National Union of Authors (NSPU) in Kiev, and learned to know about their criticism of and fierce resistance against the Kuchma-regime, which by then was totally unknown to me, as a relatively wellpaid representative of the privileged western middleclass. Sympathizing with the democratic opposition, distributing information of the attempts of the Kuchma-regime to suppress the NSPU, and in late february last year participating as the only western representative at the decisive extraordinary general assembly of the NSPU, I gradually departed from the ruling western class of which I belong, over to the side of the oppressed majority in the former Soviet Union and in the Western Europe and USA.

When I initiated and carried through a one-day seminar on the current situation in Ukraine in front of the fateful election May 4. last year, I faced fierce reactions from the ruling western class which I was undelibarately challenging. Few days after the conference I was offered three and a half months of pay to voluntarily resign from my permanent job as the information-officer of the NFF, alternatively to be fired for "lacking wish to cooperate". Accepting the deal, I had the opportunity to go to Ukraine and follow up my support for my friends in the democratic movement. Before I left in early July, I was called to the Norwegian police on the complaints from the leaders of the peace-NGO The Norwegian Peace Society, in which I was active. I wanted the NGO to engage in discussion and cooperation with me on how we could possibly best make our contribution to the struggle of the Ukrainian people for their liberation. The chairman of the NGO systematically ignored my inquiries, made the steering comittee vote against my credibility as a representative of the NGO and finally initiatied the police-case against me. I had a quite encouraging talk with the young and open Norwegian police-officer, but during my stay in Ukraine I was made aware the police-lawyer had decided to fine me by NOK 8000, approx. 1000 US dollars, for socalled "peacedisturbing" activity. When I returned back home to Norway from Ukraine in late december last year, I learned to know that all my critical reports from the preparation of the Ukrainain Orange revolution back home for the NGOs, media and others, by the chairman had been forwarded to the police, and attached to the case against me, as a continuation of my "peacedisturbance". Since I rejected the fine, the Oslo-police insisted that we spent one whole day in the city-court of Oslo Mars 9. this year, with me in the humiliating position of the charged one, resulting in a court-decision that I ought to pay the fine of NOK 8000, plus the expenses of NOK 1000 and for a period of two years risk two weeks in jail in case of making any sort of contact with the offended ones.

Since then I`ve been in a position where the Norwegian privileged establishment makes conscious use of the court-decision to avoid any sort of contact and cooperation with me, and my suggestions for a continued support of the new democratically elected power in Ukraine. The concept of class-struggle makes this situation understandable. Without such a recognition the whole responsibility of the situation is to be placed on my limited shoulders, and I appear as a totally failed person. Because the western welfare state represents an utopian atttempt to avoid and escape class-struggle this is exactly the impression that is being made of me today in Norwegian society, resembling the impression made by the Putin-regime of the socalled Chechen terrorists, while I`m neither muslim, nor fundamentalist, just an ordinary Norwegian christian with a maybe too welldeveloped empathy with the supressed ones.

On this background in my view the main problem of today is not the KGB-circle of the Russian president Putin, and the main crisis is not to be found in postsoviet Russian society. Compared with the ardent soldiers of the western ruling class, Putin is nothing but a slightly reformed Soviet communist, answering the demands of the Western superiour power, the socalled ”winner of the cold war”. While the Communistparties on the eastern side of the Iron curtain during the Cold war were hegemonical, and alternative bourgeouis parties were forbidden, the opposite took place on the western side. If the western Communistparties, due to the democratical make-up, were not directly forbidden, they were brutally pursued by western bourgeouis secret police and medias. The Communistparty of todays highly strategical NATO-member and american state Norway is only a bleak shadow of its 10 percent size the first postwar years. Its under controle of the same privileged western middle class, resignated Soviet-travellers who denounce Gorbachev as a traitor, and voluntarily translate and distribute the Putin-propgaganda against the postsoviet democratic movements as tools of American foreign policy.

In this regard the varied Western leftist projects of the Cold war, denouncing the Soviet Union as a failed social project and calling for a ”third road” independent of both the antagonistic blocs, appear as nothing but, as Lenin demonstrated, camouflaged bourgeois enterprises. In fact the whole historical fundament of these leftist parties vanished with the successfull democratization-process of Gorbachev leading to the fall of Soviet centralized power, and thereby the main argument in the West against the Communist-parties as Moscow-led enterprises. After the fall of Soviet centralized power western leftist movements appear like the king in the fairytale who was fooled to appear naked, because of his belief in the deceiving spinners. Last weekend I took part in a bizarre event at the University of Oslo, the socalled Manifest-conference of the Norwegian leftist movement, with the aim to elaborate a new manifesto to replace the original communist one by Marx and Engels. This manifesto shall present a list of demands for the new leftist ”red-green”-government as an alternative to the current openly bourgouis one for the Norwegian parliamentary elections this autumn. Firstly, as the main speaker of the conference the leftists had invited the ”world famous Russian marxist” Boris Kagarlitsky. Kagarlitsky is some of a hero to the western antisoviet leftist movement after being imprisoned by Brezhnev in the seventies. Listening to Kagarlitsky, both at a bar friday evening, and in the saturday-morning in the University library of University of Oslo at the opening of the conference, I got the clear impression of taking part in a fascist meeting in the thirties. Kagarlitskys role was to put fire to the anxiousness of the privileged western class of the ”market-forces” and ”neoliberalism” as a liberal disease spreading from the capitalist USA. He quite clearly denounced the Ukrainian Orange revolution as ”naive” in regard of its belief in western democratic institutions, and claimed the parliament to be a more democratic institution under absolutist medieval power, than under bourgouis capitalist power, an argument well-suited to leftist simplified and blind resistance of market-economy, democratic institutions and hatred aginst the USA, and with no relation at all to sound Soviet democratic marxist-leninist philosophy, being ignored by the western ruling class, just like its wannabe friends in the Kremlin.

So todays situation is quite paradoxical and revealing: With the democratically oriented and moderate Gorbachev in Kremlin, the western middleclass stille remained suspicious and hostile against what it conceived as the communist threat. Today, with the authoritarian, expansive, aggressive and life-threatening Putin-regime in Kremlin, the same western middleclass, both openly bourgeouis on the right wing of politics, and the more camouflaged bourgeouis on the left side, are both supportive of Putins power, the former for its stricht policy as our allied in ”the war on terror”, and the last as the only remaining possible counterforce against the ”evil US-imperialism”. Thats why Putins men may poison Juschenko, blow up the Chechen ex-president and poet Zelimkhan Jandarbiev in Quatar after making the UNs security council denouncing him as a terrorist, or shoot down the last democratically elected Chechen president Aslam Maskhadov, and a long range of other criminal acts, being confident that the western ruling class will not pay undue notice to their activites. Putin and his men as reformed communist has made the opposite transtion-process than me moving from the side of the oppressed to the side of the oppressors, and have thereby won the friendship of the western ruling class. This may not even be what they wanted to, but the current geopolitical situation after the demise of the Soviet centralized power has left them little choice. Putin is to be excused.

Without due political change in Western Europe, renovations of the western Communistparties as sound political alternatives in the ongoing class-struggle, with a subsequent marginalization of the bourgeouis leftist-movements of the Cold war, I`m afraid that radical political change in the largest former Soviet republic Russia will show very hard to achieve, and the world will continue its general move towards global fascism. The modern world were living in is, illustrated by this very internet-channel making it possible for us to share our thoughts, closely interlinked..

I do hope for a discussion of this radical and somewhat surprising analysis of mine. What do you for instance think of the crucial concept of class-struggle?

Best regards
Sigurd Lydersen, Oslo, Norway
e-mail: sigurd_lydersen@yahoo.com
I zapadnye strany nuzhdajutsja v oranzhevoj revoljucii.

Последний раз редактировалось: Sigurd (Пт 1 Июл 2005, 14:49), всего редактировалось 1 раз
Вернуться к началу
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

Зарегистрирован: 18.04.2005
Сообщения: 14
Откуда: Norvegia

СообщениеДобавлено: Пт 1 Июл 2005, 11:06    Заголовок сообщения: Message from Pre-revolutionary Norway Ответить с цитатой

Dear Yakov,

Thanks a lot for this. This is exactly what the internet was created for, to ensure meetingplaces for researchers and democracy-activists like us. I saw on television yesterday a danish-produced programme on the particle-accellarator in Cern, on how the world wide web was created to meet the needs of the physics, and it struck me how we are using the web in the same manner. See my lengthy answer for you:

Its a pity that Antoine doesn`t answer, but as you point out, to help the Russian democracy-movement is not "easy and straightforward." Antoine is just 21 years old, and still believe himself to be the master of the universe. I`m afraid that when the realities get clear to him, he will most likely shud away, because the task seems too overwhelming, and he will prefer not to challenge the world-view of his girlfriend, friends and family. But maybe I`m wrong. Especially among young west-european youth today many questions are being raised, that makes them appear more open in relation to the current realities, while the privileged establishment manifested as parents, professors and employeers do their best to present their answers, to ensure their own power-base.

In many ways I conceive todays Norwegian society a prerevolutionary society, just like Ukraine in front of the Orange revolution, and todays Russia. After the brutal westernizing-process of former Soviet society the similarities of post-Soviet and Western society are much more striking than the differences. The greatest difference, though, is that the postsoviet population share a common Soviet background, that we in the west are lacking. This background makes it evident to the postsoviets that "there is an alternative", it empowers them, makes them belief in something that in western society is regarded a psychiatric problem, that the stateapparatus can and ought to serve the interest of the people. Thats why todays Ukraine represent the most democratic republic on the planet, and paves the path for the other postsoviet republics and West-Europe and USA, as a sound prolongation of the revolution and democratization-process started in 1917.

I`m in a state of making use of all channels possible to make this views known to a broader Norwegian public, and therefore would like to include a few more in our timely correspondence on these issues. I would love to hear from you again, to learn more about your acitivites and experiences from your position as a Russian Phd-student in Germany.

Best regards
I zapadnye strany nuzhdajutsja v oranzhevoj revoljucii.
Вернуться к началу
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора

СообщениеДобавлено: Сб 16 Июл 2005, 01:31    Заголовок сообщения: Ответить с цитатой

hey every1 from Alex K. aka Tom - Russia, Saint-Petersburg; student - 19y.o., law faculty, specialization: government&law (most interested in Constitutional Law, Elections Law, Politics, Geopolitic topics, Parties)

Sigurd, Antoine, it would be nice to talk with both of you - i must say that i personally do not belong to this organization ("No Putin"), but i share their point of view in some topics (not fully, though).

I`m fully independent person, so if you would like to know something interesting about Russian political life (i know many aspects of this topic; including latest changes in Russian laws), go ahead and ask any question via email - mj_12temp@hotmail.com; i`ve got contacts among some journalists and right now i`m working on the project of new social organization, not to create a new revolution (revolution WILL kill Russia, trust me), but to build a new generation of liberals among young people; organization cannot be popular if people do not support it. "No Putin" is not supported organization, alas. Why? Because of their actions. They are too dull and odd. Nothing special about`em. People are simply not interested. We will bring something new to this city and to this country.

I hope that someday our organizations will gain strength, so that we could unite them, and transform `em into new well-supported party.

I would like to share experience and knowledge with everyone, who is interested in building Russia as a democratic country through social activity and positive actions without use of force.

By the way - i have a contact in university of ministry of internal affairs, and we talked about the so-called "order 870", signed by former minister of IA Boris Gryzlov ("United Russia"/"Edinaya Rossiya" - party leader). He has an interesting point of view on this problem. Willing to know what i`m talking about? Contact me if you want. Let`s share some information!

Have a nice day every1 =)

"Have no fear - Tom is here!"
Вернуться к началу

Зарегистрирован: 16.07.2005
Сообщения: 1

СообщениеДобавлено: Сб 16 Июл 2005, 02:54    Заголовок сообщения: Ответить с цитатой

Tom писал(а):
organization cannot be popular if people do not support it. "No Putin" is not supported organization, alas. Why? Because of their actions. They are too dull and odd. Nothing special about`em. People are simply not interested.

Don't be ridiculous!

“The scrappiest of start-ups, Obosov and his followers have neither an office nor a cash box for the organization. Nevertheless, that hasn't kept them from attracting the interest of hundreds of people each day through their Web site "http://www.noputin.com/". The group is even finding resonance in such far-away provinces as Kazan...”

Вернуться к началу
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение

Зарегистрирован: 17.01.2008
Сообщения: 1
Откуда: Russia-France

СообщениеДобавлено: Чт 17 Янв 2008, 13:04    Заголовок сообщения: Ответить с цитатой

Salut Antoine,

It's funny, cause I've been Russian student in Lyon 3 Jean-Moulin for 2,5 years Smile I'm interested in politics as well, since I'm here, I think there is a really politics' culture in France, sometimes the French do too much xith their strikes etc, but I guess it is better to do too much than nothing.

Good luck
Вернуться к началу
Посмотреть профиль Отправить личное сообщение Посетить сайт автора
Показать сообщения:   
Начать новую тему   Ответить на тему    Список форумов noputin.ru -> Our friends all over the World Часовой пояс: GMT + 4
На страницу Пред.  1, 2
Страница 2 из 2

Вы не можете начинать темы
Вы не можете отвечать на сообщения
Вы не можете редактировать свои сообщения
Вы не можете удалять свои сообщения
Вы не можете голосовать в опросах

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Русская поддержка phpBB